I don't think a reasonable and rational concern in this area is "paranoid".
I don't partake in drugs of any kind or alcohol, I am a complete teetotaler.
I don't have any illegal items nor do I partake in illegal activities, not all of my interactions with police are negative. Imagine a venomous snake, many/most of them will never harm a person, and avoid interaction with people but that does elevate the issue of the venom.
The guy next door is part of the LE system and most of the guys I meet at the range are LEO, many of them are quite personable, and not a single one of them has been able to refute my challenge when asked honestly about corruption.
Police have become the enforcement arm of the state under the direction of the court system.... You don't see a problem with that?
And yes I would prefer a society of openly armed (open carry) free individuals and 2/3 or less LEO than now...
For a guy who shows downright cynicism towards people in general, you sure do trust the police.
It isn't that there aren't good cops, it's that their job is to catch the bad guy. It's not an easy job, nor is it clean and neat, but they will get their man and sometimes they won't care if they happen to be innocent.
And considering the lack of discipline that is applied to corrupt cops in most states, I'd rather just take the fifth than end up in jail for something I didn't do (or did do but didn't know it was a crime).
@Rdio Bloger: If you think your local police are corrupt, think about moving. I know this sounds like the old Republican "love it or leave it" line, but I honestly don't understand why you would stay someplace you don't feel safe. But chances are you're white and have nothing to worry about.
If you love open carry, there's plenty of places you could go. Texas and Florida have pretty lax gun laws, and some of the highest crime rates in the country. Enjoy that social experiment gone wrong; I won't even go near those places.
You think police abuse their "power," I'm thinking two out of every three people packing fire"power" isn't a great solution in a nation of over-excited, impatient, angry jackasses. I think it's hysterical that you believe everyone citizen has the responsibility of taking the law into their own hands... that is some abusively damgerous bullshit to be shoveling on us.
If you're thinking exotic, may I suggest Somlia or the Democratic Republic of the Congo? You're free to gang rape or whatever you do besides drugs.
[The man with no visible vices is sure to have atrocious ones he keeps hidden... I wouldn't turn my back on a psycho who talks about how evil the cops are and how he wants to carry his gun openly... sorry, not psycho, sociopath, whatever... semantics.]
@SFM2: I don't "trust" the police. If anything I think there should be more police whose sole job it is to police the police, but I certainly don't buy the fallacious argument that mob justice, vigilantism, and armed citizens engaging in fire-fights whenever someone snaps is an improvement.
I also find "private" or "voluntary" security (when there is no other form of security) to be ridiculously stupid. It is literally law enforcement for those who can afford it, while the most viable complaint I hear about law enforcement now is how they work for the wealthy elite. It's no different, really.
Most of the problem has nothing to do with officers, it has to be with legislators who have the power to change what officers enforce and even how they enforce the law. I would support laws that banned police use of tasers or even limited their ability to carry firearms, not because I lack trust, but because most can do their job without those easily abused tools.
This has nothing to do with promoting mob rule or vigilante justice. This has to do with talking to the police when it clearly will do you no good whatsoever.
You stated you were not paranoid of the police. Neither am I, but I don't trust them either. They are allowed to lie, deceive, and coerce you to admit you committed a crime and somehow people seem to believe that this is OK. That anyone who is the target of a police investigation is guilty, regardless of what the truth is. It's a kind of collective primetime crime drama mentality.
I agree with much of what you have said, but I believe that private security is better only because they don't take money through force from everyone, but simply send you a bill. Try not paying your local taxes next time and telling the police you don't want their services.
You posted... "If you think your local police are corrupt, think about moving."
I am saying that EVERY locality in the ENTIRE US has a police force that is corrupt - I know for a FACT that every location in the US that I have lived or have traveled is corrupt.
You posted... "But chances are you're white and have nothing to worry about."
This is not a racial issue here in the West, you spend too much time in the elitist Atlantic coast, racial issues are almost exclusively urban where the issue is elevated. Racial strife - racial problems. Rural areas with no racial strife the police state problems manifests itself outside of the higher stress areas and into others. This is a "hot spot issue".
You posted... "If you love open carry, there's plenty of places you could go"
That is one of the reasons I moved to Colorado FROM Texas, open carry, fewer people, lower crime per capita, snow.
You posted... "Texas and Florida have pretty lax gun laws"
Compared to the Western states they are FAR from lax... New York, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Illinois, Florida, and South Carolina all have an outright BAN on open carry and relatively strict laws on transport, carry, and ownership/purchase.
You posted... "...and some of the highest crime rates in the country. Enjoy that social experiment gone wrong; I won't even go near those places."
Are you aware of the actual statistics and the breakdown? I have to say you sound more like an "anti" without the real info... All of the "open carry" states have LOWER Crime per capita than the other states. People in active open carry and even concealed carry states enjoy the BENEFITS of a lowered crime instance. - Where are you getting your information from? The highest crime per capita is always in the most gun restrictive urbanized areas.
You posted... "You think police abuse their "power," I'm thinking two out of every three people packing fire"power" isn't a great solution in a nation of over-excited, impatient, angry jackasses. I think it's hysterical that you believe everyone citizen has the responsibility of taking the law into their own hands... that is some abusively damgerous bullshit to be shoveling on us."
I trust the citizen FAR more than the STATE - it is that simple, I am a social liberal, atheist, who happens to be PRO RIGHTS and anti-STATE.
The statistics back up my position - not the statist position.
You posted... "If you're thinking exotic, may I suggest Somlia or the Democratic Republic of the Congo? You're free to gang rape or whatever you do besides drugs."
Good (non-exastant) Lord! isn't that pedestrian attitude more popular PC than actually rational thinking? That is not ever a reasonable statement.
You posted.. "The man with no visible vices is sure to have atrocious ones he keeps hidden... I wouldn't turn my back on a psycho who talks about how evil the cops are and how he wants to carry his gun openly... sorry, not psycho, sociopath, whatever... semantics."
Are you trying to be this way, rude without a good reason? You realize you set yourself up for a reasoned counter argument based on FACTS.
You would be far safer as my next door neighbor than in a school yard, church, or even a public park. You seem to have some irrational fears about an armed public that are not based on facts.
Police corruption on the other hand has some very interesting statistics.
Oh and I forgot to list it TEXAS also has a BAN on open carry and has from the 1800's so both Florida and Texas both do not fit your presupposition Bret.
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That will make you look innocent to a jury... at least go in there with a lawyer so you can say you cooperated.
ReplyDeleteAm I seriously the only one here who is not paranoid of the police? How much drugs do you guys keep in your homes, jeez...
I don't think a reasonable and rational concern in this area is "paranoid".
ReplyDeleteI don't partake in drugs of any kind or alcohol, I am a complete teetotaler.
I don't have any illegal items nor do I partake in illegal activities, not all of my interactions with police are negative. Imagine a venomous snake, many/most of them will never harm a person, and avoid interaction with people but that does elevate the issue of the venom.
The guy next door is part of the LE system and most of the guys I meet at the range are LEO, many of them are quite personable, and not a single one of them has been able to refute my challenge when asked honestly about corruption.
Police have become the enforcement arm of the state under the direction of the court system.... You don't see a problem with that?
And yes I would prefer a society of openly armed (open carry) free individuals and 2/3 or less LEO than now...
For a guy who shows downright cynicism towards people in general, you sure do trust the police.
ReplyDeleteIt isn't that there aren't good cops, it's that their job is to catch the bad guy. It's not an easy job, nor is it clean and neat, but they will get their man and sometimes they won't care if they happen to be innocent.
And considering the lack of discipline that is applied to corrupt cops in most states, I'd rather just take the fifth than end up in jail for something I didn't do (or did do but didn't know it was a crime).
@Rdio Bloger: If you think your local police are corrupt, think about moving. I know this sounds like the old Republican "love it or leave it" line, but I honestly don't understand why you would stay someplace you don't feel safe. But chances are you're white and have nothing to worry about.
ReplyDeleteIf you love open carry, there's plenty of places you could go. Texas and Florida have pretty lax gun laws, and some of the highest crime rates in the country. Enjoy that social experiment gone wrong; I won't even go near those places.
You think police abuse their "power," I'm thinking two out of every three people packing fire"power" isn't a great solution in a nation of over-excited, impatient, angry jackasses. I think it's hysterical that you believe everyone citizen has the responsibility of taking the law into their own hands... that is some abusively damgerous bullshit to be shoveling on us.
If you're thinking exotic, may I suggest Somlia or the Democratic Republic of the Congo? You're free to gang rape or whatever you do besides drugs.
[The man with no visible vices is sure to have atrocious ones he keeps hidden... I wouldn't turn my back on a psycho who talks about how evil the cops are and how he wants to carry his gun openly... sorry, not psycho, sociopath, whatever... semantics.]
@SFM2: I don't "trust" the police. If anything I think there should be more police whose sole job it is to police the police, but I certainly don't buy the fallacious argument that mob justice, vigilantism, and armed citizens engaging in fire-fights whenever someone snaps is an improvement.
I also find "private" or "voluntary" security (when there is no other form of security) to be ridiculously stupid. It is literally law enforcement for those who can afford it, while the most viable complaint I hear about law enforcement now is how they work for the wealthy elite. It's no different, really.
Most of the problem has nothing to do with officers, it has to be with legislators who have the power to change what officers enforce and even how they enforce the law. I would support laws that banned police use of tasers or even limited their ability to carry firearms, not because I lack trust, but because most can do their job without those easily abused tools.
Bret,
ReplyDeleteThis has nothing to do with promoting mob rule or vigilante justice. This has to do with talking to the police when it clearly will do you no good whatsoever.
You stated you were not paranoid of the police. Neither am I, but I don't trust them either. They are allowed to lie, deceive, and coerce you to admit you committed a crime and somehow people seem to believe that this is OK. That anyone who is the target of a police investigation is guilty, regardless of what the truth is. It's a kind of collective primetime crime drama mentality.
I agree with much of what you have said, but I believe that private security is better only because they don't take money through force from everyone, but simply send you a bill. Try not paying your local taxes next time and telling the police you don't want their services.
Bret...
ReplyDeleteYou posted...
"If you think your local police are corrupt, think about moving."
I am saying that EVERY locality in the ENTIRE US has a police force that is corrupt - I know for a FACT that every location in the US that I have lived or have traveled is corrupt.
You posted...
"But chances are you're white and have nothing to worry about."
This is not a racial issue here in the West, you spend too much time in the elitist Atlantic coast, racial issues are almost exclusively urban where the issue is elevated. Racial strife - racial problems. Rural areas with no racial strife the police state problems manifests itself outside of the higher stress areas and into others. This is a "hot spot issue".
You posted...
"If you love open carry, there's plenty of places you could go"
That is one of the reasons I moved to Colorado FROM Texas, open carry, fewer people, lower crime per capita, snow.
You posted...
"Texas and Florida have pretty lax gun laws"
Compared to the Western states they are FAR from lax... New York, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Illinois, Florida, and South Carolina all have an outright BAN on open carry and relatively strict laws on transport, carry, and ownership/purchase.
You posted...
"...and some of the highest crime rates in the country. Enjoy that social experiment gone wrong; I won't even go near those places."
Are you aware of the actual statistics and the breakdown? I have to say you sound more like an "anti" without the real info... All of the "open carry" states have LOWER Crime per capita than the other states. People in active open carry and even concealed carry states enjoy the BENEFITS of a lowered crime instance. - Where are you getting your information from? The highest crime per capita is always in the most gun restrictive urbanized areas.
You posted...
"You think police abuse their "power," I'm thinking two out of every three people packing fire"power" isn't a great solution in a nation of over-excited, impatient, angry jackasses. I think it's hysterical that you believe everyone citizen has the responsibility of taking the law into their own hands... that is some abusively damgerous bullshit to be shoveling on us."
I trust the citizen FAR more than the STATE - it is that simple, I am a social liberal, atheist, who happens to be PRO RIGHTS and anti-STATE.
The statistics back up my position - not the statist position.
You posted...
"If you're thinking exotic, may I suggest Somlia or the Democratic Republic of the Congo? You're free to gang rape or whatever you do besides drugs."
Good (non-exastant) Lord! isn't that pedestrian attitude more popular PC than actually rational thinking? That is not ever a reasonable statement.
You posted..
"The man with no visible vices is sure to have atrocious ones he keeps hidden... I wouldn't turn my back on a psycho who talks about how evil the cops are and how he wants to carry his gun openly... sorry, not psycho, sociopath, whatever... semantics."
Are you trying to be this way, rude without a good reason? You realize you set yourself up for a reasoned counter argument based on FACTS.
You would be far safer as my next door neighbor than in a school yard, church, or even a public park. You seem to have some irrational fears about an armed public that are not based on facts.
Police corruption on the other hand has some very interesting statistics.
Oh and I forgot to list it TEXAS also has a BAN on open carry and has from the 1800's so both Florida and Texas both do not fit your presupposition Bret.
ReplyDelete