Disrespect delusion, religion at best is a convenient argument for “might makes right” of the worst type, where delusional manipulators claim to know what a “superior” supernatural wants you to do.
The ultimate “bully-by-proxy” statism with no boundaries, no political system can be this encompassing and then make you feel guilty for biology, lack of time, lack of money, and lack of devotion to a non-person based on nothing and no facts.
So because this guy does not believe in God, I am not supposed to, either? He is making broad statements about me, which are not correct anyway. This guy has a chip on his shoulder and I'm not buying his argument.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I share most of his beliefs, this man has always been a smug a**hole... i wont watch his videos, no matter how compelling.
ReplyDeleteSmatchimo - Logic is smug?
ReplyDeleteBecause you believe in god Wally we are? Do you know how sickening it is to endlessly have to listen to drivel about a “personal experience with my loving god and savior”...
“You just need to feel his love” - ugh, if I wanted to be irrational, illogical, and stupid I could just get some weed and smoke until I had visions of Jesus.
Remember faith is an irrational belief that is not based on any proof or evidence...
Many atheists dislike Pat because of his anti-islam stance (very PC in Europe) - methinks that Wally would like lots of Pats anti-Islam videos.
Wally may have a point.
ReplyDeleteRadio Blogger, I think you missed a word in your comment (read your first sentence), but I gather you are saying, "Because you believe in god Wally J, we are to as well?"
ReplyDeleteMy faith in Christ, and following His teachings, would not mean too much if I didn't feel that way, now would it? Do I think Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and Atheists have it wrong? Of course I do, otherwise what would my faith mean? It would be am empty tag I place on myself.
Now, do I belittle these others? No. Why not? I don't because my faith teaches love and respect, and I do not enjoy being mean to people. Do I think God will judge these people? Yes, and I also think God will judge me. Am I righteous? No, I think I'm actually a pretty lousy Christian much of the time. I do things I know are wrong. My faith makes me desire to be a person much better than I am... I desire to be more like Jesus.
Do I joke about Atheists? Sure I do. Do I joke about Christians too? Absolutely. I am the kind of person that finds humor is most situations.
If someone asks me, I will tell them I am a Christian. If they ask why, I will tell them why. If they are having struggles that I have experienced, I may tell them to pray about it, and I will pray for them. Why? Because I have found peace and comfort doing so, and I am convinced that there is a God and that He has helped me out in tough times.
Do you my words gushing about my personal experience with God? I wouldn't think you would, but maybe you do. I'd like to know.
Come visit my blog sometime. Yes, I acknowledge that Christmas is about the birth of Christ. I would hope that would not prevent you from visiting. You may find that my humor brings a smile to your day sometimes. It's satire, it's goofy. I choose to keep it clean so it's fun for any age.
- Wally J
www.funooze.com
Due to personal experience and observation I have learned to never, ever trust a fundamentalist christian - the more it is ingrained and the more preaching, the more evolved in evangelicalism the more I cannot trust them.
ReplyDeleteThe worst examples of abuse to me and others have always been at the hands of the most religious christians evangelical christians (two of them preachers).
No offense to you Wally but your religion is purely evil, your god (if it were to be real) is not only racist, murderous, and infanticidal but sadistic. Because of this, far too many christians are simple “excuse makers” constantly using narcissistic justification for evil and that evil is often justified by the texts used by christians (The Bible).
You may be a great guy, sorry your religion I find lacking in any evidence and completely immoral or at least the morality we would expect from a few pathetic primitive desert dwelling racist, megalomaniacal manipulators.
The definition of Faith: the confident belief or trust in a person, idea, or thing that is not based on proof. - this is also similar to Delusion: belief that is either false, fanciful, or derived from deception.
Radio Bloger,
ReplyDeleteI obviously cannot answer for things that may have happened to you at the hands of someone else. It would be like me blaming you for everything some other person (that happened to be an Atheist) did to me.
Responding to your accusations of God being racist, murderous, infanticidal and sadistic, I do not agree based on your reasoning. One problem with your argument is that you are trying to characterize God and judge his actions based our intellect and understanding. I believe that there are things going on that we cannot comprehend. Does that bother me? No. Why not? Because it is inconsequential.
My religion is evil? I fail to see your evidence.
Sorry to re-use an old comparison... but here it goes. Do you believe in Gravity? Yes, of course you do? You cannot see gravity, can you? No. Can you taste it, smell it or hear it? No, of course you can't. Now, why again do you believe in gravity? Is it because you can feel it? You can feel the effects of gravity on you, your friends, your belongings, the trees, animals, water, and everything around us? If so, this is the same reason I believe in God. Can I see, smell, hear or taste God? No. Can I feel God? Yes, absolutely.
I grew up in a very lightly-religious household. My parents were two different religions. We never prayed, we never went to church, we never said grace before a meal. I came to know God on my own terms, not the terms of another, or any kind of indoctrination like Atheists like to assert.
I am a Christian... Jesus is the desert-dweller (using your words) who's teachings I follow. Were there some other great teachers and "men of God" in the Bible? Sure... Saul, David, Jonah. Did they screw up and do things they shouldn't have? Sure did... again Saul, David, Jonah. Did Jesus? No... Jesus was perfect. The only perfect man. Again... I'm a Christian... not a Saulian or Davidian.
You comparison of faith to delusion is clearly for your own amusement.
My comparison of faith to delusion has nothing to do with amusement, nothing about the dangers of religion amuses me at all, most of the time I am horrified.
ReplyDeleteNo, I am far from amused.
Obviously you cannot answer for things that may have happened by other christians, but then as a simple atheist, no claim of superior morality is implied - only a lack of a belief. As an anti-theist I am in a weaker position because I now need to justify the position.
God being racist, murderous, infanticidal and sadistic is completely supported by your “holy book” in clear black and white. Don’t think that I have not seen your argument of “god of the gaps” or “livestock ownershitp” position of apologists.
Arguing that “god” gets a special position away from judgements for actions because he is “god” is special pleading (a logical fallacy).
Arguing that we just don’t know the nature of god and therefore cannot judge his (mythologically) claimed horrible actions may make perfect sense to YOU but is the height of arrogance and willful ignorance to the empiricists - something most christians (and the religious in general) do not understand - why everyone else is just sick of hearing the mythology and the delusion that supports it...
And by the way -gravity, radiation, and other invisible forces can be measured, tested, and with the correct tools modified and directed.
Every test to measure or test anything of the supernatural, including the very existence of god and prayer not only have not found a shred of evidence but have concluded the negative even statistically showing the negative.
I have not asserted that you were trained to be a christian, most are, but in your case and in the case of many evangelicals I would not as I understand that adult cultists often take on that belief as a clear choice. There is some evidence that if you were to be raised and in areas of heavy population tending to Islam or Hindi then you likely would be Muslim or Hindu presenting the religious case for one of them.
The Bible is not only -not- the only religious text it is also not the oldest what proof do you have of the superiority of the Bible over the Mahābhārata?
Prove that anything from the bible can even indicate a world view written by primitives of the time...
For example where is Germ theory, Gravitational theory, Genetic theories and others in the texts...
Radio blogger- I do have one question. Is a shovel evil? My answer? No, but it is a tool which can be used for good or evil. It's all in how a person uses it. Religion is the same thing. A tool, and a very powerful one. But, just like the shovel, it may not be a tool you need, If you don't need to dig. Religion has done nothing to man but show them a way. Men have done much to religion to benefit themselves, but ones own perception of the teachings of a religion is the key to how the religion is used. Wally J finds strength in his religion. You find strength in something else, and that's cool.
ReplyDeleteBTW, I'm agnostic, so don't think I'm taking the Christian viewpoint here, but I am a realist. And I do believe a learned person allows others opinions to exist freely, and that opinions can't be wrong, just disagreed with.
Radio Bloger,
ReplyDeleteI am not familiar with "god of the gaps" or "livestock ownership". Perhaps you feel that you are dealing with someone school in the art of religious battle. I am not skilled in said warfare. I do, however, enjoy cheese.
For the record, I was raised in a mostly Jewish, Hindu and Catholic population. We also had a lot of low-riders.
Empiricists? Smaller words man... I went to public school.
World view? I see world view as man's view... Limited in scope and understanding. World view once said that the world was flat, and that the Earth was the center of the universe. At one time it also said that people will not pay for bottled water.
I fail to see how the age of a text indicates superiority. Isn't that kind of like saying cockroaches are smarter than people because there are more of them?
As far as the Bible, I believe it to be written by the hands of men inspired by God. The words contained therein are life lessons, instructions, history and prophecy. I wouldn't expect the Bible to contain gravitational theory any more than I would expect it to contain information about combustion engines or DNA sequences.
One noted difference between you and I is that you place you faith in man, where I place my faith in God. You live in the world where there are no consequences, and there is no hope, beyond the grave. I live in a world where there are everlasting consequences.
And I still like cheese. If you like cheese, then we have found something to agree on. :)
The problem with the shovel argument or any other tool (and I am familiar with this also is that - the tool does not have text on it that expressly tells the user to kill - the bible does have text that demands violence - burn witches, kill homosexuals, kill non-believers and more...
ReplyDeleteEveryone keeps missing this - the christians who have actually read the bible know it is there and will avoid it knowing it is a problem.
Wally.
I also have only a public education, this is not a matter of education, but a matter of research and rational critical thinking.
God of the gaps -“God” as existing or proven in aspects of reality that are currently unexplained by scientific knowledge, or that otherwise lack a plausible natural explanation. GOTG is an example of argumentum ad ignorantiam or appeal to ignorance, a logical fallacy.
God owns the livestock (Morality by ownership) - From Psalm 50:10 and others (Deuteronomy 10:14 - Psalm 50:12 - 1 Chronicles 29:11) I think it is a form of Molinism. Regardless the argument is that because god is god and he owns the livestock he is not bound by morality. This is called "special pleading" another logical fallacy.
If the bible was inspired by god why is is so full of simply wrong information? Why is it so full of ridiculous items and downright evil?
The Bible does not contain gravitational theory, or even more practical information like germ theory, but it does contain voodoo for leprosy, childbirth, menstruation, garment weave, handicapped at the temple, racism, killing and a list so long it would fill several pages...
You make a mistake in that you say I place “faith” in man, I do not, unlike others here I am not an anarchist, I think humans are barely sentient partly harry stinking apes.
If there are everlasting consequences, what is heaven? cannot a child raping murderer “find jesus” and instantly get a ticket to the great reward?
I may indeed like cheese...
Radio Bloger,
ReplyDeleteKeep in mind that I am a Christian, and not a Jew. Jesus established the new covenant with man. We are no longer held to law, but in stead are saved by grace (Luke 22:20).
Now, what about that Old Testament... what's it good for? Well, it contains lost of history. I am sure you agree that history contains valuable lessons even for modern-day man. It also is a great source for really long and hard to pronounce names. I know you will discount the OT history as fiction, but I count it as fact. I could go into specific details, but I don't think you will even consider them.
God of the Gaps. Catchy title and equally cool acronym, but it's got "no muscle," much like what Frank-n-Furter said of Eddie (portrayed by Meat Loaf) in the Rocky Horror Picture Show. There is evidence of divine intervention throughout OT history and evidence of intelligent design all around us. I also think that we see divine intervention in modern times, but as a non-believer, you will discount it as coincidence.
Still failing to see the point of the livestock thing. I even looked at some cows and donkeys (I live in a farming community), and it didn't help. :/
I apologize for the generalized statement about your faith in man. I assumed, and you know what that gets us. I do, however, find concern that you feel that way about humans. It reminds me of the position of Margaret Sanger on blacks, immigrants and the poor. It's your choice of course... ya know, freewill and all.
Can a turd like Charles Manson come to know Christ and enter Heaven? Yes, I would say yes. His acceptance, repentance and such must be genuine (God knows for sure). Will he still be judged? The bible says he will. He might get the room next to the noisy ice machine for all eternity! That swastika on his forehead is probably not going to help his witness to other inmates though, even if he really is saved.
Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-19, "“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
I'm sure you already know "The Law" refers to the OT. I do not question God's authority. I have no reason to question it, because I believe he is real, and he is God. I am me, and I am not God.
American, cheddar, Colby jack, Parmesan... I like pretty much all cheeses.
Have you been to my blog? You've gotta admit I'm working pretty hard here... throw me a bone! :)
Radio Blogger- The tool analogy was about religion, not Dogma. Alot of folks I speak with get these confused in our discussions. Back to the shovel. When I first needed to dig a hole, I was told about a shovel and how to use it to dig a hole by a man. Now, if I had ran into a serial killer and asked about a shovel I would have gotten a different lesson all together (assuming I wasnt killed, but I digress) Most folks find religion in this way. They ask someone about it, and that person mentions religion and how to use it. A good teacher presents the material and allows for interpretation based on individual perspective.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, the Bible is an interpretation of the word of God, by man. Not a rule book. Over many Centuries, it has been re-interpreted thousands of times, again by man. I personally view it as a history book of sorts. In that respect, I do not discredit the Canturbury Tales just because we "just don't talk like that anymore".
I have questioned most of my life what I actually have "faith" in, since I do not adhere to a religion. I consider myself an excelent judge of whats right and wrong, especially within the laws of man. Morality and ethics gets tricky sometimes, but I feel I have done a good job so far, but one thing I think has helped is that I try to listen to others and reserve judgement as best I can until I have enough facts, and if more present themselves to the contrary I change my judgement. I judged christianity, and religion in general, once in my life as wrong, illogical, based in fiction. Then I realized, I don't have to judge it yet. If something all powerful out there exists, Im sure I'll meet him/her in due time, and at that time we will see what happens. If not, I at least lived my life like I felt best served me and my family and others around me.
Back to the original title of your post. I don't think Faith is a joke. I think politics is a joke. The difference in Faith and politics is that politics is a process and Faith is a belief. Faith cannot be proven, just witnessed.
"Still failing to see the point of the livestock thing.”
ReplyDeleteGod is “owner” the apologist attempt to give god a “convienent” out for the lack of morality in the textual stories - he is “god” so he in not confined by our “meager” thoughts about morality -so what if he wants to see girls children raped and the infant brothers and mothers of that family killed... morality or the lack of need for moral actions by ownership.
If you god did exist and the text are true, “god” is a sadist, or in effect “the evil one” an amoral narcissistic, sadistic, racist, psychopath.
The bible also has this - In John 5:30 Jesus says: "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me." Jesus perfectly yielded to the will of the Father, even to the point of death (Luke 22:42). He and His Father did not have different agendas. They did not have separate laws. - then - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (Matthew 5:18)
"Will he still be judged? The bible says he will. He might get the room next to the noisy ice machine for all eternity! “
Please... and a good person with good will who has never harmed but helped in a full life will burn in hell forever?
Your promotional parts of your religion say that no matter HOW bad, and no matter HOW much, eternal reward is available for just the “faith” of a full heart (and I would say empty head) so carved signs in the forehead are of no consequence.
The god of the bible is a megalomaniacal sadist, and none of that is “moral” - sorry, this is unacceptable...
Until christians abandon the bible’s nasty parts (like Thomas Jefferson for example) then attaching even the nicest “faith” to that primitive religion written by ignorant manipulative racists.
"I do, however, find concern that you feel that way about humans. It reminds me of the position of Margaret Sanger on blacks, immigrants and the poor.”
Please, the leadership your religion produces many of you hold up as “the best” and not of one of them can hold a candle to me, my wife or my kids in moral standing! I have never killed a human, never defrauded anyone, never used a position for favors, never hired a prostitute, never had a “gay” experience, never committed adultery (the actual definition not your mythological version), don’t smoke, don’t take intoxicants, don’t even eat meat. - Name me a religious televangelist, ID promoter, creationist, or bishop that can say that!
Nice try on the Sanger connection, you get Bret points for that one...
"There is evidence of divine intervention throughout OT history and evidence of intelligent design all around us.”
Are you kidding??? The OT is not even a reliable source for the most basic of history, anything close is distorted by racist, ethnocentric, primitive, apologists jealous of the advanced world of the time trying to gather the mythology and advancements of others and claim anything of propaganda value as emanating from “themselves’.
Trying "intelligent design” here is not going to float - care to explain the "Crocoduck” fallacy and how that proves ignorance of the facts not cleverness.
As for cheese I like as a snack alone or with bread, Beaufort, Tomme de Savoie, and Fourme d’Ambert, all best on a tarp overlooking Lac Annecy while backpacking in october.
That “tool idea” is simply not applicable, it is just that “hey this is wonderful and beautiful just ignore that rotten part there”...
ReplyDeleteI does not work -if it has an ugly rotten part instead of leaving it out for someone to find and abuse (all the time telling everyone it is great, wonderful, and moral) why not reject it publicly and then remove it permanently?
So if you were to say it was a tool why would one, trying to promote the tool as good to use, hand a person a shovel with three vines of rose thorns wrapped and glued to the handle?
What the heck is a crocoduck? Do you mean, a Crock o' Duck? Is that case, referring to the slow cooker filled with yummy duck meat, then I need to know when dinner will be ready. I can taste it already!
ReplyDeleteCan you please tell me who exactly I am holding up as my best? You seem to know more about what I am thinking than I do... unless of course you taking however many Christians are in the world, blending them all together and pouring each one into a glas... and I am one of those glasses. Can I be one of the "un-cola" classes with the wide part at the bottom? I always thought those were cool.
As far as saving grace, I didn't say that I think anyone who does horrible things deserve to get a pardon in the eleventh hour. Nor did I say that someone who is wonderful deserves to spend eternity out of the presence of God. God said those things... not me. I recognize God as a higher authority than me. I may not always agree with Him, but He's in charge, and I am not.
"you get Bret points for that one".... are you sure you didn't go to college or something? What are Bret points?
Thomas Jefferson is in the Bible? What nasty part was he in that Christians now abandon?
Old Testament contains much history.
Intelligent Design... Do you really think that all this stuff just happened out of randomness and happenstance? Things like bacterial flagellum? I disagree.
You are obviously much more well versed in the finer things of life judging from your cheese statement. I'm more of a Philly cheese steak and Rotel dip kind of guy.
" I recognize God as a higher authority than me. I may not always agree with Him, but He's in charge, and I am not.”
ReplyDeleteThis is the source for the “livestock argument” this is called "Appeal To Authority” and there are various modifications to this theme.
Your answer belies the fact that this is uncomfortable for you, it should be and is for any christian and every apologist, your room-next-to-the- ice-maker example is how the catholic church deals with this problem creating “purgatory” to help gain more converts who in antiquity understood this basic problem with the texts.
"Crocoduck?”
The crocoduck is a photomontage from infamous creationist-for-profit Ray Comfort that indicates an ignorance of speciation or a fraudulent attempt at “bumper sticker” logic used to fool the stupid, ignorant, and indoctrinated. So far every proponent of creationism is a fraud and a lier, if you find one that is not deliberately fraudulent or not using “bumper sticker” logic let me know...
"Intelligent Design... Do you really think that all this stuff just happened out of randomness and happenstance? Things like bacterial flagellum? I disagree.”
I would love to disagree with uncomfortable facts, nobody likes to be faced with uncomfortable facts, often this is explained as cognitive dissonance.
I want to go easy on you, you seem like an agreeable guy, but if you are going to use irreducible complexity you better start to look at sources other than religious fraudsters.
There are clear paths that not only prove that irreducible complexity is bogus but your exact example is has been so debunked it is showing your sources for information and a lack of research.
The William Paley/Michael Behe irreducibly complex structure is apologetics not fact and willfully fraudulent. For a good start "The Flagellum Unspun” is worth looking over.
"Thomas Jefferson is in the Bible? What nasty part was he in that Christians now abandon?”
No, Jefferson wrote a bible based on the original texts and expunged all of the offensive and non-uesful stuff, his product could be called the “moral teachings of love from Jesus”.
And if you have read the bible you know the nasty parts, including infanticide, slavery, racism, and the commandments to kill witches, homosexuals, and sabbath workers.
"Old Testament contains much history.” - and lots of evil, I would bet that we could find more verifiable history in the Iliad and Odyssey, or better yet the Hávamál, Gylfaginning, Skáldskaparmál, and Háttatal.
""you get Bret points for that one".... are you sure you didn't go to college or something? What are Bret points?”
I never finished college, everything I do I learned on-the-job. Without revealing too much - research and study of chemicals is a small part of that, I have to make things work so facts are important.
Bret points, I was being snotty, Bret is a young leftist contributor on this site, I am more libertarian and older, it makes for some entertaining exchanges.
"well versed”
More like very well traveled, all for work, more accurately beaten, tired, haggard, traveler, good food and camping is a temporary relief. Just because I like nice stuff does not equate to the lack of enjoyment of a good veggie burger.
veggie burger
ReplyDeleteNo, no, no Radio! Maybe for you, but I can't enjoy that (not very much)! There is nothing that compares burgerwise to a good quality ground beef hamburger!
Real bloggers eat beef!
Though I do like turkey burgers too, just not as flavorful.
I put only one g in “blogger” to signify that I am not a “real” blogger....
ReplyDeleteI don’t even know what real meat tastes like anymore, I will have to just put up with the substitute.
Now sag (palak) paneer or Dal Makhani and we are talking some good stuff!
Radio Bloger,
ReplyDeleteRe: "recognizing God as a higher authority than me. I may not always agree with Him, but He's in charge, and I am not.” What's wrong with this, if it is my belief? I don't understand your argument unless you are just trying to convince me that you are right and there is no God. You keep dumping me back into this bucket that you call "apologists." Is it possible, even remotely, that I believe this on my own? Well, that's the fact, and you don't need to like it, but you should recognize that I have faith that there is something much greater than me. I am not uncomfortable with this... on the contrary I am quite comfortable with this.
The room-next-to-the-ice-maker example I would expect you to recognize was meant to be humorous. Now I do indeed believe that we (me, you, others) will be judged in the afterlife for what we did while here on Earth. I am only slightly familiar with “purgatory”, although I thought it made for a great western and I actually own it on DVD.
I was really hoping that the Crock o' Duck was going to pan out, as it sounded delicious.
I read up a bit on this after my last blog, so I now have more information on that. I had never heard of it by name, but I am familiar with the lack of fossil evidence of evolution.
I still don't see how everything around us could have just happened. Even over millions or billions of years. What I observe today is the breakdown of things, not the buildup of things. I will look at "The Flagellum Unspun."
I've read enough of the Bible to know that there is a lot of violence and "nasty parts." That I have never argued about. But just because those things were nasty, should we leave them out of history? They happened.
"Old Testament contains much history. - and lots of evil, I would bet that we could find more verifiable history in the Iliad and Odyssey, or better yet the Hávamál, Gylfaginning, Skáldskaparmál, and Háttatal." I disagree about the evil part, but you've got me again on the 'some college' part by using words I cannot even pronounce.
Ahh... Vegetable Beef Barley is calling. No cheese though. :(
"I am familiar with the lack of fossil evidence of evolution.”
ReplyDeleteAre you going to say there are no transitional species?
"just because those things were nasty, should we leave them out of history? They happened.” much of it (if it were true) at the hand of or the command of “God” - and this ties into the first argument - Whatever god does is ok, this includes rape of girls, killing infants, racist rules for slavery, and a long list of amoral acts... if true, god is not good but evil and sadistic - I could never worship a being that evil...
"you've got me again on the 'some college' part by using words I cannot even pronounce.”
I never finished and no college outside of iceland would likely teach much about the Hávamál - for goodness sake, who does not know about the Iliad and Odyssey? You don’t have to go to college to want to know things... Holy crap!....
I don’t get it, I have the spelling and grammar nazis think I could not pass high school and just about every conservative think I am some professor’s TA... How hard is it to think that someone can learn outside of a college?
Here is one for you - take the religious test...
It would be interesting to see where you are on this knowledge test.
No idea why the link dropped, try copy and paste.
ReplyDeletehttp://ignorancehurts.blogspot.com/2010/11/religious-knowledge-test.html
Hey man... you know I'm just joking with you with the college comments, right? I'm just trying to keep it light. For real though, I never learned about Iliad and Odyssey. Never had it in school, and never pursued it on my own.
ReplyDeleteI don't know of any fossil evidence of one species becoming another (a fish become a turtle, etc).
We are not going to agree on the "God is evil" part. I don't see it the same way you do.
I took the test... got an 84.44 %. Heres what I got wrong...
Q.27) Describe Catholic teaching about the bread and wine used for communion?
Q.31) What religion contains the teachings of Maimonides?
Q.36) What religion do the majority of people in Pakistan consider themselves?
Q.38) Do you happen to know what religion the majority of people in Indonesia consider themselves?
Q.39) What was the name of the person whose writings and actions inspired the Protestant Reformation?
Q.44) Who is the religious figure from northeastern India known as The Enlightened One?
Q.45) Founded in fifteenth century Punjab, what religion is closely associated with leaders called Gurus?
It would probably not surprise you that I aced the religious test in the original form... Most christians could not get over 60% on the original.
ReplyDeleteYes, I understand about the lacking education in the public schools, I was forced into that system myself, colleges fair no better often only providing HS level education from 60-100 years ago. Post WWII where propaganda became part of the curriculum is the big drop. Sad actually.
"I don't know of any fossil evidence of one species becoming another (a fish become a turtle, etc).” - It does not work that way, the fish to turtle example is too full of gaps, the fossil record is not full of gaps like that and they would not use it that way. There are clear transitions from fish to amphibian then on - no jumps and no irreducible complexity.
And there are hundreds of thousands of documented transitional forms that clearly show evolutionary changes in the fossil record. Creationists apologists often use the lie “no transitional fossils exist” and then go to the stupid examples like the crocaduck knowing full well evolution does not work that way.
"We are not going to agree on the "God is evil" part. I don't see it the same way you do.”
So raping virgin girls, slavery, killing infants and more is not evil?
IF that is not evil how can you justify the above? - It is all written as the direct order of god in the bible. How do you justify Deuteronomy 20:10-14, Numbers 31:17-18? (that list could be pages BTW.
That and more is why I consider the bible not only evil but evidence of primitive writers who were delusional or manipulative and amoral, a god would be “better."
Pretty sad about the 60% thing. I guess I did pretty good. I really don't ascribe to what other say about the Bible. I read it for myself... no one tells me how to pray or which fork to use or anything like that. Maybe I am a bit unique?
ReplyDeleteCan you give me any specific examples of fish to amphibian evolution?
Deuteronomy 20:10-14 - "When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies." I don't see rape mentioned here. Slavery? Would it have been better to kill the women and children, or was it better to assimilate them into the Hebrew nation? War is war, and it is both sanctioned and necessary. I don't see the evil.
Numbers 31:17-18 - "Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." Again, no rape mentioned. Killing of infants, yes. In some cases, God ordered that all a people be killed, man, woman, child. In this case God ordered the Midianites to be exterminated because of their evil. The line would have been carried by the men, therefore "kill all the boys" to stop the line.
I see these events as necessary cleansing of certain evils from the Earth. Old Testament is full of these events.
Backing up a few posts, can you please tell me who I, Wally J, am producing as "the best”? If you think I stand behind people like the Quran burner in Florida, charlatans like Jim Bakker, the latest guy to predict when Christ will return, or touchy-feely Joel Osteen, you are wrong. Give me some credit as an individual who chose to accept a gift of salvation from Jesus Christ. You think it's all hogwash, which is something you can do using your freewill, but I believe it.
If you want to see the results of the original Pew guided results of the knowledge test...
ReplyDeletehttp://pewforum.org/other-beliefs-and-practices/u-s-religious-knowledge-survey.aspx
Can you give me any specific examples of fish to amphibian evolution?
Panderichthys was a rhipidistian, osteolepiform fish, originally classified as tetrapods until a complete skeleton was found. These are the only fish whose fin bones fit the tetrapod pattern of humerus, ulna and radius in the forelimb and femur, tibia and fibula in the hindlimb. Yet these limbs still have fins on them. Their brain case is so much like that of the earliest tetrapod it was the reason for the misclassification. This fish also had lungs and external nostrils in the same position as those of the early tetrapods - AND also had gills, and fangs how about THAT!
Ichthyostega - first animal fossil with feet but the feet are different than most tetrapod feet. The legs were only good for being in water. They could not support the weight. These are -half evolved legs- since they have more digits than the normal tetrapod but fewer bony rays than the fish and they are unable to support the weight. Similar with Acanthostega.
And Pederpes finneyae, makes four transitional forms right off the bat...
"I see these events as necessary cleansing of certain evils from the Earth. Old Testament is full of these events.”
So killing infants, mothers, and everything but the girls to keep for forced marriage (we call that rape now and yes it was mentioned) is moral? - This was a GOOD thing? Judges 21:10-24 NLT - kidnapping and rape, the above and others.
You are passing this off as a “cleansing” (is this like ethnic cleansing) If you cannot agree that this was wrong, morally bankrupt and sadistic then we have nothing to talk about and you are choosing to justify evil in the way battered wife syndrome protects a wrongdoer.
"the best” - lets try this - I do not believe in god, IF I did think it was real I would reject the god of the bible as evil, some reasons above and before.
Am I going to burn in hell?
Will or will not a murder, rapist, and fraudulent thief, get to heaven if he converts and believes in his hart before death Jesus is his savior?
This is all written in the “good book” is it not?
As far as you WJ producing, this could all well be that the material you are presenting is standard fair for Craig and Comfort, if not where is the material coming from? For someone who claims not to know some “big words” your apologetics points are advanced, and that, most of the time makes it identifiable as to source.
I had to Google 'Craig and Comfort' to see who you were talking about. I recognized Daniel Craig's name when I found an article based on my search, but I don't think I have ever read any of his stuff. Are you accusing me of using some prepared "material?" I do not. As far as the flagellum, I attended an ICR conference where I first learned of it, then I researched on my own. The biology stuff is a bit beyond me, but when I see the device design, I cannot believe that it just 'happened'. As far as scripture, I am a Sunday School leader who prepares his own lessons every week - I find the Lifeway and Explore the Bible type stuff to be too vague and bounces all over and place. I prefer to go through an entire book of the bible, or at least stay on a particular topic or person.
ReplyDeleteYou saying my apologetics points are advanced, I guess I should take as a compliment?
As far as the 'big words', do you not recognize me joking around a bit? You did stump me there on some of those names, and I've never read the Odyssey or the Iliad. I would hope you coulld at least chuckle at any of the subtle humor I have injected.
The issue with Pat Condell is he was wronged somewhere in his life, and is now gunning for anyone of faith. Is this your story too?
The fish you mention is still a fish! Just because it is unique does not indicate it changes from one species to another.
Ichthyostega - was it not well equipped to move through shallow water and swamp lands? I see it as wonderfully created for the environment in which it lived.
I am not familiar with the Pederpes finneyae, so we'll have to come back to that one.
I think that if you have knowledge of, but decide to deny Christ, you will indeed burn in hell.
I ask you this, Radio Bloger, in Judges 21, who is giving the commands? It's not God.
Wally
ReplyDeleteHave a great christmas.
Ray Comfort and WL Craig (I mentioned them before), the arguments may be familiar because in some cases there are no other directions for apologetics.
Now, please don’t insult me by avoiding the moral questions, the texts of your religion contain content that indicate that “god” is a sadist - I know it is uncomfortable but you and I both know that you cannot justify the contents without reverting to “appeal to athority” and “might makes right” both will not remove the sadism that is apparent.
"The fish you mention is still a fish! Just because it is unique does not indicate it changes from one species to another.” Is that it? Just deny the timeline and the obvious content, the bones in the legs, the head, the lungs.
Institute for Creation Research? That batch of parasitic liars...
Look, the non-religiuos understand that religion is dangerous, you are only proving our concerns. What happens when the controls of society are removed from the religious, what can we expect from the religious?
Religious individuals thinking in a religiously moral way flew jets into two buildings, convinced that the actions would result in an after death reward. The dangerous parts of any religious text are never rejected by the “reasonable” members of the cult, and the danger remains.
Would you stop a witch burning?
How many of your coreligionists would?
"I think that if you have knowledge of, but decide to deny Christ, you will indeed burn in hell.”
Is knowledge of translate to proof and evidence?
Care to answer about the rewards for the murderer who converts?
You must understand how difficult this is, I don’t have to believe anything about subjects like biology, there is plenty of evidence and proof, religion on the other hand has not even the slightest thread of evidence. You are going to reject direct evidence or proof of evolution and try to promote religion on faith.
Radio Bloger,
ReplyDeleteYou can stop telling me how uncomfortable I am. If it were so, I would have abandoned this thread long ago. I think we all get the point that you are trying to manipulate the situation by backing me into a corner by insisting I am uncomfortable. Attack the messenger instead of the message it seems. Let's try some role-reversal...
Many posts ago you eluded to the fact that you have been wronged by some, or many, in your life. These people were some kind of theists... probably Christians. You have in turn, become bitter towards anyone of faith, characterizing all theists by the actions of a few.
Okay, now we can return to the heart of the matter.
"Ray Comfort and WL Craig (I mentioned them before), the arguments may be familiar because in some cases there are no other directions for apologetics." - Okay, I still don't know any more about them than I did when you first mentioned them. I really don't care what they say because my belief and relationship is between me and God. I don't see how using, "but they said..." arguments is adding anything.
What moral questions am I avoiding?
I disagree that "God is a sadist." What branch of the military were you in? You should know you (and I) are not the top authority on all matters. If you can not accept this, that is your problem, not mine. God is the ultimate authority in my life. Period.
What timeline am I denying? The 6 billion year, or whatever number-of-the week it is now, timeline? Evolutionists continually change the timelines to make their story fit. I'm not buying. Bones in the legs, lungs, etc indicate ability to adapt to changing conditions... not evolve. I believe in adaptation, but those creatures never become a different species.
So, the Institute for Creation Research are also a bunch of liars? Anyone who disagrees with you are liars, imbeciles, or some variant of 'Kool Aid Drinkers?' Typical banter for someone with no faith. Attacking the messenger once again.
The religious are dangerous? People are dangerous, and some religions preach hate and violence. Christ did not teach violence. He taught compassion, understanding and love. How is that dangerous to people?
"Religious individuals thinking in a religiously moral way flew jets into two buildings." Yes, I agree with that. However, I do not practice the faith of those people.
"Would you stop a witch burning?" Yes, I would. I would share the truth of the Gospel with them. It's then up to them to believe or not. Jesus told us (Christians) to tell the world the news of salvation through Him.
"How many of your coreligionists would?" I don't know, but what does that have to do with me? My spiritual relationship is with Jesus Christ, not with other people. I never thought of myself as a "religionist." Sounds condescending.
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ReplyDeleteRe: burn in hell without Christ, you said "Is knowledge of translate to proof and evidence?" I don't understand the question - can you rephrase it? Note that I am not avoiding anything... I really don't understand the question.
"Care to answer about the rewards for the murderer who converts?" Sure. Like Christ told the thief on an adjacent cross, "you will be in Heaven today with me." (I'm paraphrasing). I believe that if it's a true repentance, then he will receive salvation and be in Heaven. I believe that none of us are worth of Heaven... we cannot get there on our own. That is why we need the grace of God through faith is Jesus Christ. This is where the 'room next to the noisy ice machine for all eternity' comes in. That of course is meant to be humorous, but the basis is that how we live our lives on Earth will equal our rewards in Heaven. I think God will want to know what I did with the things he gave me... did I feed the poor, clothe the naked, etc.
I reject evolution first on the basis that I believe the Bible is true... all of it true. God created the sun, moon, Earth, stars, animals, people and such. I reject evolution secondly based on the lack of evidence that it ever occurred. I reject it a third time based on the complexity and order of the universe - things are too perfect and complex to have just happened. That's how I see it.
Merry Christmas to you as well. Any cheeses planned for the holiday? I'm thinking some Rotel cheese dip with sausage.
I just watched the banana video with Ray Comfort on youtube. Hilarious. I don't what it does for the story of creation... the video is downright silly.
ReplyDeleteSee.... sense of humor. :)
Wally
ReplyDeleteYou posted
"What moral questions am I avoiding?
I disagree that "God is a sadist." What branch of the military were you in? You should know you (and I) are not the top authority on all matters. If you can not accept this, that is your problem, not mine. God is the ultimate authority in my life. Period.”
DUDE - are you not getting this...? Your “god” does not get an exception from bad behavior - did or did he not, cause the death, torture, and even rape and ethnic cleansing noted in the bible?
Just because one is the “livestock” owner does not give one a pass on “ass-hat sadist” of the universe badge... The old saying is that a man that would beat his dog would beat his horse and his wife... god is a despicable beater, just because the laws in the area may (and did here in the past) allow the beating of a wife - that beater is no less a lout and a sadist.
" I'm not buying. Bones in the legs, lungs, etc indicate ability to adapt to changing conditions... not evolve. I believe in adaptation, but those creatures never become a different species.”
Are you aware that speciation is actually something documented in current time... you can choose to not accept the evidence, including fossil records and DNA but it does exist and can be personally researched and verified.
Creationism and the world flood story on the other hand has absolutely no evidence.
Burn in hell - my bad...
If I do not believe in Christ because there is no evidence and I am not convinced in faith, I will still burn in hell - correct?
"things are too perfect and complex to have just happened. “
If you take a flat disk and spin it on a drill - drop a bit of paint on it and it slings it against the wall, what are the chances of it hitting that exact spot? - Now look at it this way, what are the chances it actually hit the spot it landed on?
We and the other things on the world work so well because we adapted and evolved to fit the exact conditions we found ourselves in... as things change life changes to fit. If it cannot change it dies and the offspring may die and so on...
The complexity argument is also a logical fallacy, it fits religion because religion depends on magic.
The worst kind of magic - the kind “someone” talks about and we never actually see, can measure, or verify - but by golly it exists - sleight of hand hucksters on the streets of Philly or NY have a more interesting fraud to promote.
"sense of humor”
On this stuff, I don’t have much, you engaged on an atheist website, and plenty of atheists have reasons for the position and most are former christians (at least in the US).
I still disagree that God is a sadist.
ReplyDeleteIf I remember correctly from high school, science says that matter can not be created or destroyed - it just changes form. So where did all this stuff around us, in us, of us, come from then? It just existed, with no beginning? That defies logic in my mind.
The 'burn in hell' question - Yes, you are correct. That is my belief.
If by magic you mean the power of God to create and destroy, and to bend and break rules of nature, then yes, I believe in that kind of magic.
On a sense of humor, why not? What do you have to lose?
"did or did he not, cause the death, torture, and even rape and ethnic cleansing noted in the bible"
ReplyDeleteDeath - Yes, some people and whole groups needed killing. Evil people, wicked people.
Torture - I call it punishment. Rod to the back, beaten about the face and such for committing certain crimes.
Rape - God never condoned rape. It occurred in the Bible (OT history), but was done so at the hands and at the command of men, not God.
Ethnic Cleansing - Pretty much covered in the "Death" statement. Whole people groups were wiped about because of their sins.
"the death, torture, and even rape and ethnic cleansing noted in the bible”
ReplyDeleteSo far Wally, you have come to the conclusion that all of this is a good thing as long as god commands it (or not expressly forbids it, as in the rape in the name of “the land of god”).
You see nothing wrong with this?
So no matter how evil a person’s acts are, grovel at the feet of a horrid narcissist and - poof - forever in heaven.
Have a wonderful life helping others, doing good, don’t grovel at the feet of the universal narcissist - eternal torture in hell...
This is defined as amoral narcissism - no escape from this conclusion, you may disagree that god - according to your bible - is an amoral, narcissistic, murderous, sadist but he fits to the definition of all of the above.
Now according to you he and any of his followers get a pass on any evil as long as it is under the color of his authority... you are justifying evil because you “love and serve” this god - this also perfectly fits battered person syndrome.
Thank ANYTHING that your god is the figment of the twisted imagination of a batch of filthy dirty, stinking, racist, desert dwelling primitives (who likely were manipulative asses or high on intoxicants).
Because if true, the god of the bible is a horrid evil sadist, this would lead one to agree with other religions who consider the abrahamic religions as “death worship, attached to perpetual evil”, point by point it is impossible to consider the OT and the NT connected outside of the delusion of cult followers.
You are still twisting what the scriptures say to support rape, but no, I don't see any problem with evil people getting killed in the OT. That's the way things were back then - there was no Christ, no grace.
ReplyDeleteIf a person spends their life being evil, and they get 'saved' at the last second before they die, did they really repent and were they really saved? Did they repent because they wanted to get into Heaven, or did they repent because they wasted their life on Earth doing terrible things? God knows the answer, for He knows our hearts. God will judge all of us when we die. They same goes for those that have not heard about Christ - I think that God will judge those people based on how they lived their lives. Jesus died as our sacrifice to God - that is why we Christians do not sacrifice animals as a blood atonement like the Jews did in the OT.
"amoral narcissism" - you keep trying to put God inside this box. I feel that God is on a different level than we are. I see the violence that you talk about as part of history, and part of judgment against evil people.
"battered person syndrome" - I don't see the connection, because I do not see God's actions as 'evil.'
"batch of filthy dirty, stinking, racist, desert dwelling primitives" - this statement makes you sound like a racist.
The OT and NT are connected as the "law" and the "grace". We are living under "grace" today. The "law" was the old ways - it was pre-Christ. Under the law, there were animal sacrifices, deadly consequences for some sins, etc. There is a lot of history in the OT. When Jesus came, he fulfilled the prophecies of the OT in that a perfect lamb would come and be a sacrifice through which men would be saved. The Pharisees hated Jesus (not all of them I am sure, but in general) because the Pharisees had distorted the OT laws and added their own rules, all to suit themselves. They were hypocrites and drunk on their power over 'commoners.' Through faith in Jesus Christ, there would no longer be a need to have burnt offerings and such. Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law of the prophets, but to fulfill them. Some of the laws were made obsolete because of forgiveness and grace through Christ. That is why true Christians do NOT wish to kill homosexuals, fornicators, prostitutes and such. Those old laws are now obsolete.
The OT still contains a lot of good teachings and life lessons. It also contained history - including the nasty things that happened to come people either by the hand of God or by the hand of men. Jesus did not come to replace the OT, but rather fulfill it. I, as a Christian, follow the NT teachings of Christ. There are some groups that call themselves "Christians", but they twist and distort the teachings of Christ.
""batch of filthy dirty, stinking, racist, desert dwelling primitives" - this statement makes you sound like a racist.”
ReplyDeleteAnd the OT is not racist - don’t think you can pull this, I would use the same description for any religion claiming perfection based on primitive writings. I find no reason to have even the slightest respect for religion or religious concepts like “royalty” even less than the writings of clearly delusional and evil men as is proven by the OT.
Nice try... this is a site with atheists, you can skip along if you think you can get away with that... I was about to rip into you on that, but as everything you are posting is based on typical apologist positions.
“The OT still contains a lot of good teachings and life lessons.”
Good family values like Lot’s wife killed for looking back but his daughters, and Lot for incest - well that is just what is called for I guess.
Wally I was trying to be as nice as I could be, you are not making that easy.
The burden of proof is on your requirement, your demand in recognizing “god” as real.
Using logic is an untenable position for an apologist, and you continue to prove this over and over... (as all will in the end).
You can use logic or not - “special pleading” is a logical fallacy and you continue to want to claim a working position using logical fallacies as a base - that is untenable.
""battered person syndrome" - I don't see the connection, because I do not see God's actions as 'evil.’”
And that is delusional, I was trying not to use that word Wally but in the end there is nothing else, if you cannot see that punishing the innocent, children and infants and wives (even of the “enemy”) is the basis of the racist and sadist labels then we are at an impasse. It also forces me into the position of concluding yet again, that christianity is dangerous and that the imaginary sprit identified as god can only be identified as narcissistic, evil, inconsistent, flawed, and incompetent.
You continue to claim that faith in the irrational, unprovable, and unverifiable is superior to the mountains of evidence that (unfortunately for the abrahamic religions) prove the bible to be the flawed writings of ignorant primitives. That is the illogical position that can only be defended with delusional thinking.
I am not offended by “merry christmas” simply because I understand exactly what traditions and pagan religions it was all stolen from, it is a revelrous time, I do hope you enjoy the Yuletide, gifts under Yggdrasil delivered by Thor and his goats on a sled, kissing under the Saturnalia Mistletoe, and celebrating the Winter Solstice.
"batch of filthy dirty, stinking, racist, desert dwelling primitives - this statement makes you sound like a racist. - And the OT is not racist"
ReplyDelete- So you are now using "I know you are but what am I" arguments?
"I find no reason to have even the slightest respect for religion..."
- Okay, I respect your freewill option to not have any respect for my faith in Christ.
"Nice try... this is a site with atheists, you can skip along if you think you can get away with that... I was about to rip into you on that, but as everything you are posting is based on typical apologist positions."
- Would you rather no one commented on your posts, or that they were all nodding up and down in concert with you? What's wrong with a little debate?
“The OT still contains a lot of good teachings and life lessons. -- Good family values like Lot’s wife killed for looking back but his daughters, and Lot for incest..."
- Come on now, you know that the Bible has examples of both good and bad people in it. Lot's wife disobeyed a direct command from God's messengers (the angels) not to look back. Lot's daughters were wrong to get their father drunk and sleep with him. Lot also bears blame here for letting himself get drunk and what happened. The resulting children and lineage proved very troublesome for the line of Abraham.
"Wally I was trying to be as nice as I could be, you are not making that easy."
- Hey man, I'm not looking to rumble in the street. I'm cool with debate. If you tell me you are done debating, we will end this.
"The burden of proof is on your requirement, your demand in recognizing “god” as real."
- I'm really not demanding you to recognize anything. Faith in God is something that one must find for himself or herself. All I'm doing is defending my position. We can still enjoy some cheese and crackers. One of my best friends is not a believer... we disagree on the issue. He's still my friend.
"Using logic is an untenable position for an apologist, and you continue to prove this over and over... (as all will in the end)."
- You will find out when you die, which I am not wishing on you or anything, that I am right, and that there is a God.
"You can use logic or not - “special pleading” is a logical fallacy and you continue to want to claim a working position using logical fallacies as a base - that is untenable."
- Okay... but God is still real. Also, I don't have any of those shirts with pleats, letting alone "special pleating." ;-)
"battered person syndrome" - I don't see the connection, because I do not see God's actions as 'evil.’ -- And that is delusional, I was trying not to use that word Wally but in the end there is nothing else.
- Actually, in the end there are the credits. Then they have that part that says "DOLBY SURROUND" and the "PANAVISION" and stuff like that. If I am delusional, then I am delusional for Jesus - Amen!
"if you cannot see that punishing the innocent, children and infants and wives (even of the “enemy”) is the basis of the racist and sadist labels then we are at an impasse."
- Then I agree, we are at am impasse. Good thing this is not a double-line "no impassing zone."
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ReplyDelete"It also forces me into the position of concluding yet again, that christianity is dangerous and that the imaginary sprit identified as god can only be identified as narcissistic, evil, inconsistent, flawed, and incompetent."
- Okay now, admit it... you were going to think that anyway. There was nothing I was going to be able to say or do to change your mind. Some would say you have a 'hardened heart', but I am not going to make that judgment because only God knows that.
"You continue to claim that faith in the irrational, unprovable, and unverifiable is superior to the mountains of evidence that (unfortunately for the abrahamic religions) prove the bible to be the flawed writings of ignorant primitives. That is the illogical position that can only be defended with delusional thinking."
- Um, okay. God is real. Wanna go to church with me on Sunday?
"I am not offended by “merry christmas” simply because I understand exactly what traditions and pagan religions it was all stolen from, it is a revelrous time, I do hope you enjoy the Yuletide, gifts under Yggdrasil delivered by Thor and his goats on a sled, kissing under the Saturnalia Mistletoe, and celebrating the Winter Solstice."
- Thank you for the pleasantries. I am not offended by your secular greetings, and I wish you the very best in this joyous season!
- I do wonder sometimes, though, if Thor ever wished he has a claw on his hammer... you know, in case he bends a nail.
(I hope I yanked at least a little smile, or perhaps the slightest, barely audible chuckle.) :)